Australian Trader Loses $430K at BTC-e: ‘Nothing Illegal Tied to My Funds’

This week news.Bitcoin.com spoke with Jack Kingston, a cryptocurrency trader from Melbourne, Australia, who lost $430,000 USD worth of bitcoins at the exchange BTC-e. Mr. Kingston was quite surprised when he tried to log in one day, and the exchange was “under maintenance.” However, the Australian trader was even more astonished to find out the U.S. government painted all of the platform’s users as criminals and took his money.

Also Read: BTC-e Operator Indicted and Connected With Missing Mt Gox Funds

‘Can You Imagine the Horror?’

Bitcoin.com (BC): Can you tell our readers about your story?

Australian Trader Loses $430K at BTC-e: 'Nothing Illegal Tied to My Funds'Jack Kingston (JK): I was trading on BTC-e, and there was nothing illegal tied to my funds. The only reason I was trading on BTC-e is because it was so easy. I’ve been trading cryptocurrencies for years, even during the Mt Gox debacle, but I lucked out on that one. I have an account with Poloniex as well, but I could not get second level verification, and that was making getting my funds difficult.

I sent Poloniex an Australian passport which pretty much opens doors for me everywhere, and they have my email addresses and a bill for my living address. Yet, still 2-3 months pass, and I still cannot get better verification. Which means I can put $400,000 into an account, but you can only withdraw $2,000 a day.

BTC-e was easy, and that was the only reason why I traded there, and the rest is sort of history man. A lot of the money came from a bunch of dash nodes that I sold, as you know a few Dash nodes are worth a lot of money. A lot of traders in the troll box were talking about selling for USD just before August 1, but then the shit hit the fan, and no one could do anything. This is where I found myself — Can you imagine the horror? Literally right after I sold these Dash nodes and the rest of the money I had on there.

Australian Trader Loses $430K at BTC-e: 'Nothing Illegal Tied to My Funds'
The BTC-e dashboard.

BC: So you lost close to a half a million dollars?

JK: Yes a shitload of money, $430K USD. I’m not in the position of where I am struggling and such, but that’s neither here nor there. I started buying bitcoin when it was just a few dollars and sold at around $800 and then got into dash when it was very low — And dash has gone up twelve-fold since then whereas bitcoin was like 33 percent.

But the real reason I was trading so much money is because when you’re swinging $100,000 to 200,000 trades and bitcoin moves two percent you’re doing alright. For me, it’s a part time thing on the side.

BC: Will you try to get the money back from the FBI?

Australian Trader Loses $430K at BTC-e: 'Nothing Illegal Tied to My Funds'
Visitors see this message when they try to access the BTC-e.com website.

JK: Yeah if there’s any way I can access my money. I have email accounts, I can log into my account, I have proof the money there is mine. I’m not sure what I’m planning to do yet.

Some of this shit I’ve been reading about in the news saying that ‘everyone who used BTC-e is laundering money’ is bullshit! I don’t know what kind of idiot comes up with that idea. The reality of it is BTC-e is much easier to use than many of the other exchanges. I like to trade, and I like to short bitcoin. There’s nothing wrong with me doing that. 

Where does the U.S. get the jewels to says that I can’t trade with my own funds? That’s pretty unreal mate, if you think about it.

How do you feel about BTC-e?

JK: There was never any problems short of the FBI coming in and destroying it. I don’t understand how the FBI can claim jurisdiction over my money. As far as the funds of innocent people who have money on there I don’t know why they won’t let people access it.

If BTC-e came back and refunded my money, I would continue to use them. I would trade with them after everything they’ve been through for them to be loyal to customers. There’s no reason why I wouldn’t use them.

Maybe they had a bad egg in there, but that doesn’t give the U.S. the right to claim my hard earned money. It’s like the police force, you got some police that do the wrong thing, and if they get charged, you don’t shut down the whole police force.

The Elite Want Everything

Mr. Kingston says he is a little hopeful about BTC-e’s recent announcement and continues to tell me he has no qualms with the exchange whatsoever. It’s the U.S. government doing this and is not allowing him access to his funds, Mr. Kingston explains. There has been little to no information provided by U.S. law enforcement so far about the “purses” BTC-e says they confiscated.

Mr. Kingston tells me he’s sorry for talking so negative about the U.S. but thinks it’s really just a government issue that’s affecting us all.

“It’s not just the U.S. mate, but they’re playing a big part. It’s a government thing worldwide. The elite want everything while us regular people flounder. The U.S. has no right to my money,” Mr. Kingston adds.

What do you think about the Australian trader and his loss? Do you think the U.S. has a right to the funds on BTC-e? Let us know what you think in the comments below.


 Images via Shutterstock, and BTC-e.com’s dashboard. 


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  • BitBox Crypto

    I hope he gets his money back soon.

    • CuiJY9P3tCzsDNn2LMuG

      I DON’T! WHAT KIND OF DUMMY KEEPS THAT MUCH MONEY ON A WEBSITE WITH A TROLL BOX! WOULD YOU KEEP THAT MUCH MONEY WITH A BANK THAT HAS A TROLL BOX ON THEIR FRONT PAGE?! COME ON, USE YOUR BRAIN!

      • JJ Garcia

        I hope something this unfortunate happens to you, like losing a leg in a car accident. Be a human and not animal, have some respect. We kept money in BTC-e because we were trading it daily.

        • CuiJY9P3tCzsDNn2LMuG

          I wish the same for you! 🙂 Now go kill yourself. YOU WILL NEVER GET THAT MONEY BACK MONKEY. 🙂

      • Pablo

        my bank have chat))

  • Merlin Jackson

    In the end I feel users will get there BTC Back. I’ve heard of law enforcement trying to do this to atm owners who have atms in bars or restaurants connected to money laundering. In the end the owner of the ATM, has to spend money to prove the funds in his ATM were not connected with money laundering or illegal activities.

    I see users having to spend money on attorneys and such to prove the funds on BTC-E were not from illegal activities. But idk how that will happen if your from Australia.

    • Well, according to reports here (if believed), these people had millions in the exchange, so presumably they have means (or were the most foolish millionaires ever!). Also, let us remember that they profited from the speculation, not like they really worked for it. And don’t tell me trading is ‘work’. It is gambling.

      The people I feel sorry for are the ones who lost < $10k, as that was probably MUCH more meaningful to their lives and keeping a roof over their head.

  • squiders Marine

    If you own a house and have tenants, you want the tenants to pay rent and not conduct illegal activity within your house. That’s what the governments are doing. Get a new house or be more careful with your activities. We all know exchanges are the worst place to keep money.

    • Peter Griffin

      Worst place to keep money? I don’t think anyone with half a brain stores money long term on exchanges unless they’re actively trading. If you want to trade crypto you pretty much don’t have any choice but to use an exchange.

      Trading is perfectly legal. Under your logic you probably shouldn’t own a bank account in case the Feds seize that too.

      • squiders Marine

        I keep what I can afford to lose on exchanges, although I know many who keep all their assets in one pot in one exchange. Ha, absolutely regarding the bank account, you think you own the money in your bank? Meh… if you do your mistaken. What we have on an exchange is open to external factors, seizing, hacking, insolvency, liquidation etc etc. Bring on decentralized exchanges 🙂 it’s happening!!! The people taking back some authority. Hopefully block chain will open many new opportunities in the future.

        • Peter Griffin

          My point is you can’t avoid bank accounts unless you plan on living a difficult life. Of course the money in a bank account can be seized at the stroke of a key.

          • squiders Marine

            I understood your point, I try to keep as little of my holdings in fiat. I invest in stocks, bullion and crypto. Crypto being my current favorite. What a simple world changing concept and all I can think of is, why hasn’t it happened sooner. The more countries adopt crypto the faster USA will fall into economic crisis. The petro dollar system will collapse, no demand for dollar = high inflation. So stock up on cryptos if your in the states. It’s gonna get rocky.

          • tosh noway

            I approve this message.

          • chech0

            The reason the dollar has not fallen are all the wars to keep the dollar alive Irak, lybia, Afganistan, Panama, Vietnam, Granada, Syria, etc coup in Honduras, Guatemala, Chile, etc cold war in Korea, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. So one can conclude that the dollar is not based on market principles, it is backed by the strongest army in the world and the inflation generated by the dollar it is distributed worldwide if someone does not agree the army steps in, that is the reason the dollar is strong. You remove the backing of the army and you would have an inmediate hyperinflation and a complete collapse of the dollar. The atacks on exchanges like BTC-E is mostly to backup the dollar, they are afraid if too many challange the dollar it could collapse and in that regards they are right.

          • squiders Marine

            Fantastic response. So saddening to see the list of casualties in the wake of US Army. I almost fear for NK they stand 0 chance. Perhaps they’d last a week maybe 2 and are pushing all the wrong buttons. The war on America will only be won via a financial squeeze. Enter Crypto. If crypto is successful in disarming USA, I really hope it can bring balance back to the world and no new dominant war machine is born.

          • Indeed, having the most powerful military in the world, and demonstrating a willingness to use it, does empower your currency quite a bit!

          • Petro dollar? Have you been following oil prices? I don’t think Petro has anything much to do with it anymore. What does matter is who you can, say, finance a house in. You can’t make a down-payment in BTC. I figure the US will eventually start issuing their own cryptocurrency. That is where we are headed. Then they will have put a hard hit on so many complications they have with cash (counterfeiting, money laundering, etc..).

          • squiders Marine

            Hmmm I disagree, the only reason the dollar is so valuable is due to the oil for dollar system. Once that falls… and it will. There wont be any demand for the dollar (or much less) then it’s good bye america unless they can pull out another scam like Nixon did with the petro dollar system. Protecting this petrodollar system is why they went to war… Sadam started trading outside of this arrangement, Gaddafi made his plans to do the same and the same happened there. US are in a bad space and crypto could spell the end. ETH for oil and gas? Why do you think Putin has been having Vitalik around for dinner lately? The smart city is what Vitalik gets out of the deal. Agreed about national currencies… however the point about crypto is all of them are international so “America” can’t just create their own so simple. I’m scared of XRP. It has the potential to do what your speculating about and it’s not that I want to cripple governments, just to have a little side step in financial blocks. I’m still trying to figure out where North Korea fit into this picture. It’s obviously not as simple as the media is making out. They had historic Allies with USSR and China so I’m wondering if Putin is up to something and the Bully that is USA is falling for their poker face. Smart guy. Lets face it, North Korea can’t do anything to threaten USA, they aren’t stupid so whats the real play?

          • Well, we do have fracking now, which changed the game quite a lot since we have much more of our own oil… I dunno, I admit to be ignorant about the ‘petrodollar’.

          • squiders Marine

            Dubai plan to be fully crypto by 2020 as I understand

            Have a read of this, it’ll change your understanding of the world forever and also help you understand why crypto is so important and the US are throwing dirt in the cogs. It’s a long read, but once you get going, you’ll be like “wow”

            http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system-part-1/

            It’s a genius system, just a shame it’s screwed up the world.

          • Taking a quit read, some parts seem accurate, some not. For instance, aren’t we OIL independent now, with fracking? Part 2 of this essay says we are not and implies we still have to import OIL.

          • squiders Marine

            Which country are you from? I thought fracking was gas not oil?

            The point is oil for dollars, it creates an artificial demand for dollars, which means the reserve can keep printing and it will continue to hold it’s value. Once that demand goes, ie you can buy oil for bitcoin or euro (which isn’t allowed under the current setup otherwise you get bombed by the US army) the us dollar will be worthless. Inflation will crush America, hence they are desperate to keep the petrodollar system in place.

          • The USA and fracking can be done to get oil or natural gas,

            “The process involves the high-pressure injection of ‘fracking fluid’ (primarily water, containing sand or other proppants suspended with the aid of thickening agents) into a wellbore to create cracks in the deep-rock formations through which natural gas, petroleum, and brine will flow more freely.”

            I will agree America is in deep doo-doo on actually a number of fronts.

          • squiders Marine

            for instance, if you are a french company and want oil, you need to convert your euros into dollar, then buy the oil… you can’t just buy a barrel of oil for euro’s. That’s where the demand for dollars comes from.

          • The rich keep their money in banks, so they made sure the laws are more protective of such. There are a lot more legal protections and hurdles to seize a bank account. They must show criminal activity. FDIC insurance (in the USA and other nations similar) and financial regulations help to keep banks from defaulting, or the public from losing trust that their money is safe.

    • Peace

      Zero sense made and an absolutely ridiculous analogy.

      • squiders Marine

        All you’re demonstrating is you have zero understanding of how people are living under the protection of a countries military and for that protection they expect you to pay taxes and keep your hands clean. If you don’t they’ll kidnap you (arrest you) freeze your assets (in this case crypto), ask for an explanation of how you came into such high amounts of assets (interrogation) if they don’t like your answer they’ll put you in a rape camp (prison) – It’s an extremely simple analogy aimed at the fact that if your earning that much money, the IRS want their share, as such if you own a home and are renting it you’d want to receive your monthly payments from your tenants. A house costs upkeep, so does a country. It’s a demonstration of power. Simple. Perhaps I should have written that in the first place 😀 hahahaha

        • Peace

          This analogy made even less sense and seemed so forced. Of course the IRS wants money, that’s what taxes are. The rest is just… phew. I sure hope your just some college student doing what college kids do, become ultra liberal quasi conspiracy theorists, because if you have actual real world experience and still spout that nonsensical shit, my lord.

          • squiders Marine

            I generally hope it works out for you and your future gen’s. Unfortunately I think we all know what’s going to happen. Wake up before it’s to late!

      • What he meant to say is it is a-kin to keeping your money in the same bank as drug cartels use, because it is the easiest to use.

  • The_World_Will_RIPPLE

    The real criminals are the ones who have the power to take $430K right from under your nose. I hope the US government return your money. Disgusting.

    • Bitfreak

      What if his coins/money gets auctioned off? Then he has no way to get his money.

  • Dany Ong

    Wow, I gotta give credit to the government. That’s an extreme power play demonstrating nothing short of GANGSTA. Mad respect for pulling that move.

  • kosmos

    Always hold your funds in a local wallet.. Even more $460K. US gov (like the rest of govs) wants a portion of the cake, MONEY is their main interest. Whether someone thinks the governments think in people they are completely blind. They just want money. All possible money or even more. Robbing, killing, that doesn’t matter. They will say anything to win elections, anything, but the target is always the same: more money (which in this shitty world means power over the rest)

    • JJ Garcia

      if you are trading every day, why would you move money out and pay fees? BTC-e was great. It had been safe and secure.

      • tosh noway

        Because the government is hacking your funds man.. thats why.

      • Because cryptocurrency exchanges are not FDIC insured …

  • People shouldn’t keep so much in an exchange.

    • JJ Garcia

      It costs money to move crypto in and out of the exchange.

      • sjs

        Seems like it cost nothing this time, the US government does it for you gratuitously, they remove the entire exchange. Sorry for your loss.

      • Yes. It cost him a lot more, didn’t it?

      • Trumpthis

        Well for me was using Metatrader4 takes 24 hours to move money from btc-e to metatrader4 and another 24 hours to move it back. But anyways can’t really short or make money on price going down without having money on an exchange and no way to really trade without having money on an exchange I was pulling principle off as fast as I made money back so that I would have no money at risk.

    • Richard Wiig

      It being hacked and stolen is one thing, the government taking it is another. Traders take their own risks on exchanges, but you don’t expect the government to be taking it from you.

      • tosh noway

        Why? The governments have instituted the biggest hacks in history.

      • I expect the government to pull all kinds of BS. It’s one of the reasons I back non-government currency.

        • Trumpthis

          Yup I except crackdowns on other shady none kyc, aml exchanges now that they set this precedent.

          • I don’t know about “shady.” I believe people have a right to privacy, and that includes their monetary transactions. I always expect the worst from the feds.

      • JJ Garcia

        That sort of risk is normally reserved for governments of third world countries and so called communist countries.

        • Richard Wiig

          The West is getting closer to communism with each passing year.

          • We have had a mixed capitalist/socialist society for a good century now, BUT I am pretty sure the USA is still, at it’s heart, very capitalist. I know this because everyone I know or meet is trying to suck my blood ;p

    • Obero Tek

      All those hamsters who scream and yell that you shouldn’t hold your money on the exchange – they just don’t make money from trading they buy coin and then jerking-off on it the whole year

      • I don’t know what bitter guilt trip caused you to go into “jerking-off on it.” I buy and hold, and in the mean time, I create wealth for a living. Money is just a medium of exchange. It only represents wealth, and if your primary activity is accumulating it and not creating wealth, you need to be more introspective about your actions. You are truly benefiting from the misfortune of others.

        • Richard Wiig

          All the same, there is nothing wrong with trading. Traders, in all manner of things, are an essential part really of price setting.

          • There is nothing flatly immoral about trading. Trade does set prices. Day trading, however, on the individual level, needs to have soul searching applied. Not everything wrong is flatly immoral.

          • Richard Wiig

            I know where you are coming from, but I’m not sure I agree. Productive activity is one of the highest virtues, perhaps the highest, and day trading produces nothing. I get that. I think it’s flawed though to characterise day trading as profiting from other people’s misery or misfortune. It is simply trading. It carries risk, and it requires knowledge, which does take some effort to achieve.

          • I think the activity of day trading itself, as a form of gambling, for the purpose of making money in a zero-sum game is what one needs to be introspective about. If it’s not a zero-sum game, as investment and other forms of trading are not, then I see it differently.

          • Richard Wiig

            Introspective to determine what? If someone knows exactly what it is, and is successful at it, then is there any reason why they shouldn’t do what they enjoy doing and can do well? I can’t think of any reason.

          • Introspective about what you’re doing and what good it is. Just because it’s good for you doesn’t mean it’s good. If you’re profiting in a zero sum game, others are losing, and no wealth is being created. You could be spending your energy creating wealth, and you wouldn’t be the only one benefitting. It’s called being a human being.

          • Richard Wiig

            If others are losing it is because of their own poor choices or just plain bad luck, not because a trader or day trader sat on the other side of the trade. There are a few things to consider here. When someone buys or sells as a trader they don’t force the other person to buy or sell to them. Traders simply take advantage of what others are already doing. You are suggesting that there are legitimate and illegitimate reasons to buy or sell, and that day trader reasons are illegitimate. If the reason is to try to make a profit, why exactly is that bad?

            One other thing to consider. If I sell to fund a heart operation, or purchase a holiday I’ve been looking forward to, I haven’t lost, no matter what they price does after I sell, and no matter who bought from me. I could only lose if my intent was to trade for profit and things didn’t go my way.

          • Richard Wiig

            Also, I don’t think its true to say that traders aren’t productive. To be successful they have to be very productive in studying all the data that is relevant to price. Without traders the price would be out of whack with the relevant data making fully informed investment decisions impossible. A properly functioning price signal is an essential part of a healthy economy.

          • Day trading is not unethical, but it is inherently very risky, and *is* essentially gambling. It is gambling the price will go higher or lower. *** It is also NOT usually better than having medium/long positions. Day trading does distort prices in an unnatural way, but so do a million other factors. Most day traders get completely wiped out in the end (the first market crash or what-not). Trade as you wish though, there is no law against it, and most of our market is already a casino anyway.

          • You guys are so close to talking about the same thing. First, trading itself is such a broad term. So I would say day trading or rapid fire trading is inherently risky, dangerous, and a price distorting, BUT mid to long positions are better, even for profits. It is hard to chase the cat, better to play long and stick with your beliefs even in moments of panic, something we all have to learn the hard way at some point. I am also fine with shorting, but you again are taking an extraordinary risk. The most you can earn is whatever you put in, but your potential losses could be infinite.

          • Richard Wiig

            I’m not quite sure how day trading is price distorting? It’s just a factor that goes into the price along with all the factors. I agree with you that day trading is risky, but simply putting your money in, no matter what of kind of trader you are, is risky. The crypto currency world is inherently risky.

          • (responding from a different account) Day trading is not a reflection of the value of the currency’s fundamentals, generally, as those are long positions. It is more a gambling bet. Certainly many things can distort market prices, and many things do, especially automated bots these days, which I am certain are now fairly aggressively used on cryptocurrency trading as well as the general markets. I would use them, if I had the time to sit around and and trade all day that is ;).

          • Richard Wiig

            I have to agree that bots can distort price pretty severely. The recent flash crash that triggered all the stop losses is a solid example. A distorted price though implies that there is a proper correct price, but price is a reflection of all the market participans decisions. Even those with a long term view might not have entered on a proper or full understanding of the fundamentals. It could simply be because my mate said. And I t’s possible that any particular day trader is buying and selling on a full understanding of the fundamentals.

          • I can’t disagree with that, the stock market in particular has been way over-valued many times, resulting in many bubbles popping. In the case of crypto-currencies, we curiously don’t have fundamentals, but rather only how many people are interested in, or dump their money into, those cryptocurrencies. I dunno, but I am long and hold on crypto. Every time I try to trade anything I usually lose because I don’t have the time to monitor my positions, etc… so generally avoid it.

          • Richard Wiig

            I’m pretty much the same. I don’t have the time, and my time is much more productive elsewhere anyway. If things were different though I might give it a shot. And yes, are there are no real fundamentals. Just speculation as to where the price might go based on the idea that the technology is a stayer. I think that a handful of crypto currencies will meet the demand and the rest will fall. Hopefully I’m investing in the right ones. Time will tell.

          • Traders definitely are NOT productive. As we’ve discussed the price can be entirely wrong, so you are not correcting it as much as artificially distorting it. Traders do not PRODUCE anything. They do not SERVICE anything. They are not value creators. At least the venture capitalists and investors can say they provide liquidity and capital to the market, but day traders don’t even do that, as their money is out of the market by day’s end (metaphorically). This is not to say you are evil or anything. I just have to object to saying that you are doing us all a favor by helping to set the ‘right’ price. Wow, thanks, big contribution to society?

          • Richard Wiig

            Traders provide liquidity, not just venture capitalists and investors. In fact, if you are a long term holder, then you don’t provide liquidity. Not does Kenneth, who is a long term holder. It is the short term holders – active traders – who provide liquidity. If they weren’t there ever present to buy or sell, then market would stall and the price would plummet. And the traders, at least the successful ones, do take note of fundamentals along with technicals, and try to factor in all the information they can. They do that for their own sake, and all of that is ultimately productive. More productive than you and I, who are holding and sitting.

          • The amounts of hard work they do must be what confused me. If ever I have a publicly traded company (am running in the tens of millions at least), then I guess that liquidity might benefit me. Too bad it doesn’t really do much for the small businesses of the world, which account for the majority of job creation.

            Look, I’ll say traders, day traders, everyone provides (and takes away) liquidity, BUT let’s not pretend like they are out they REALLY making widgets or providing services, etc… That’s the real part of it.

          • Richard Wiig

            I’m not sure where my reply went. Perhaps links are not allowed. I’ll try this time but without the link. It’s true that they don’t create widgets. No buyer does, whether trading long or short term, but successful traders still create value. Analysis of the information required to be a successful trader doesn’t appear by magic. It takes effort to hunt it down, digest it and then makes sense of it. That is as much of a value and as real as any widget. It’s an essential part of price setting. It helps not only those who wish to invest, but also the company in making decisions about debt, expansion, etc.

          • Nevermind this discussion. I am sure you work very hard.

          • Richard Wiig

            Peace and love and moonbeams to ya. May you live long and prosper!

          • You need to spend more time with your own conscience. Daytrading is soaked with ideas of politics and psychology and basically how to outsmart the other guy. If walls were being created it would be one thing but since wealth is not being created, It’s simply trying to find out how to scam the other people trying to trade.

            It’s a novel attempt trying to justify it has been for a good reason .

          • Richard Wiig

            There’s nothing wrong with my conscience, but I’m all for introspection, or rather, critical scrutiny. You characterise it as scamming, but you haven’t actually validated a thing you’ve said. If someone decides to sell some shares and I purchase them and resell if they rise, how have I scam anyone? I can understand scam in the context of putting out false news items, or psychological manipulation, but not in trying to speculate on the market.

          • “You haven’t actually validated a thing you’ve said.”

            This is pure nonsense. I explained my point crisply and clearly, such that there is no “validation” required or sought.

            You do know that there’s a difference between being a bad person for doing bad things and being a criminal and doing things that are or should be punished, right?

          • Richard Wiig

            Hardly crisply and clearly. You agreed that there was nothing morally wrong with it, then proceeded to call it wrong. One of the reasons given for it being wrong is that it is a zero sum game. Well that, along with all your other reasons, isn’t a validation. It’s just a claim. It reminds me of those who claim that sex is wrong if it isn’t for procreation.

          • There’s a difference between a moral wrong and a good thing. If I see someone dying on the street, I am not morally obligated to help him, particularly if it endangers me, but it might be a good thing to do so. You go ahead and keep profiting from the misfortune of others.

          • Richard Wiig

            I’m not a day trader. I’m too busy working. Like you, I’ve purchased some crypto currency because the technology looks good and I think it is here to stay, so I’ve bought and am holding for future spending, if things go well. If not then so be it. But you haven’t learnt anything here. Day traders do not profit off the misfortune of others. All they do is buy or sell a commodity. They don’t create anyones misfortune. They don’t steal from anyone. They don’t commit any kind of fraud, or rape, or murder. They simply buy or sell a commodity, just as you do, but you’re waiting longer before you sell.

            Here’s a question for you to either think over for yourself, or answer if you want. You agree that day trading is not unethical, but you do say it is wrong. My question is, by what standard do you judge it to be wrong? If you are not measuring it against an ethical standard, then by what?

          • I’m sorry you haven’t learned anything. I never said they did anything actionable. I pointed out that their can be a difference between something an a-hole does and something that’s flatly immoral. It’s sad that you refuse to see it. It’s pretty obvious. I’ll sell when I want to use it or when I sense it will become less valued in the future.

            I never said it wasn’t unethical. That’s pretty much what this is about: ethics (as opposed to morals.) If you don’t get it by now, you never will.

          • Richard Wiig

            You are just sidestepping. Morals and ethics are married to each of. Whether you use morals or ethics the heart of the matter is right and wrong. My question is valid. By what standard do you judge it to be wrong and either unethical or immoral? What moral or ethical principle is being violated?

          • They are not the same thing. I judge the person doing it to be an asshole, because he’s participating in the harm of others.

          • Kenneth, I’m still wondering what the frequency is? Nice penetrating 2.4ghz maybe? Or less-cluttered but less range and penetrating 5ghz? Or maybe in the microwave spectrum. Please, Kenneth, tell us the frequency! 😉

          • There is no frequency. A madman attacked Dan Rather. It’s a simple Google search.

          • Richard Wiig

            But he is not participating in the harm of others. Other people are responsible for their own actions. A buyer is just buying. If someone tries trading without gaining proper knowledge of what they are doing, then they are harming themselves. The responsibility lies with them. That is the Libertarian way. Not what you are advocating.

          • You’re being obtuse. It IS the libertarian way, to call out an asshole, try to persuade him, rather than to scheme to stop him by force. I never stated or implied that people are not responsible for their own actions. Is someone who helps someone do something that’s not good for him a saint?

          • Richard Wiig

            I’m not being obtuse. I am a libertarian myself, and it isn’t the libertarian way to blame people for something they didn’t do. Purchasing or selling some bitcoin, or dash, or whatever, isn’t to set out to harm anyone, no more than using your air conditioner. You stance is akin to the global warming leftists who try to make people feel guilty for using their air conditioners because by using them they’re causing misery to people on islands in the pacific who will be inundated with sea level rise. Even if it was true, it wouldn’t be wrong for people to use their air conditioners – unless of course you judge it by an altruistic standard. I’m not saying that trading commodities is the equivalent of producing commodities in virtuousness. It obviously isn’t. But there is nothing non-virtuous about trading them. In fact, if someone is good enough at it to make a living from it, then they’re being more virtuous than someone sitting around on the dole or expecting handouts.

          • So they were dragged into day-trading. No, they weren’t. We’re not talking about purchasing, or selling. We’re not even talking about speculation. We’re talking about looking to profit from the mistakes of others.

            I’m not sure why you had to drag leftists into this. I don’t think remotely like a leftist. I think like someone who has a heart and hates the initiation of force and violence for political or social goals. You’re abusing the term “altruism.”

            “I’m not saying that trading commodities is the equivalent of producing commodities in virtuousness.” This is closer to the point. Replace “trading” with “day-trading” with full knowledge that in a day that the commodity does not move, or moves very little, your profit came out of the loss of others. The comparison you threw in at the end sounds like the conservatives bragging about how much better the US is than Venezuela (therefore, it’s “good.”)

          • Richard Wiig

            “We’re not talking about purchasing, or selling.”

            We are talking about purchasing and selling.

            “We’re not even talking about speculation. We’re talking about looking to profit from the mistakes of others.”

            That’s what you call it. In actual reality it’s just looking to profit. Specifically they are looking to sell at the top and buy at the bottom of the trading range, whether that is on the same day, the second day, the second week, or month, or year. It is risky, and many traders get it wrong. Who is on the other end of the trade is an unknown. You can’t say it’s someone who’s lost unless you know their situation. Was it someone who sold after holding long term? Was it someone who panicked, such as the many who panicked in the recent Bitcoin plunge, (in which case their loss is their own fault, not the fault of whoever bought)? You don’t have a clue, but you’re calling it as if all on the end of a trade are people who are losing and being taken advantage of.

            “I’m not sure why you had to drag leftists into this.”

            I made a parallel between your argument here and their argument in regards to it being wrong to use your air conditioner because it hurts someone.

            “I don’t think remotely like a leftist.”

            You do on this issue.

            ” I think like someone who has a heart and hates the initiation of force and violence for political or social goals. You’re abusing the term “altruism.””

            I’m not abusing it. You’re saying that traders should sacrifice their trading because someone will get hurt. That is altruism – sacrifice of your self-interest to the interests of others.

            ” Replace “trading” with “day-trading” with full knowledge that in a day that the commodity does not move, or moves very little, your profit came out of the loss of others. ”

            This is just a subjective claim on your part. As has been pointed out so many times now, you don’t know who is on the other end of the trade, or their circumstances. All you have is a buyer and a seller. A seller who might be gaining, or who might not, and a buyer who might be gaining, or who might not.

          • “It’s just looking for profit” in the loss of others, and you’re repeating yourself with your rant.

          • Richard Wiig

            And you are repeating your falsehood. Or it could be now just an outright lie.

          • Idiots who take the opportunity to dance around calling people liars get blocked. Thanks for wasting so much of my time already, though. Good luck in your statist hell-hole.

          • Richard Wiig

            I’m not dancing around. I haven’t called you a liar. Just provided two possibilities. And you are the one who is dancing here, not I. By your standards, saying it is wrong to day trade because it is not productive (in terms of not creating a product) the very same holds true for buying and holding, so of not creating any kind of product is the issue, then you should denounce yourself for being unproductive in your buying and holding. But traders do create something. One thing they create is liquidity. Something that you as a buyer and holder do not. This is a fact. Let’s see if you can acknowledge that fact.

          • Richard Wiig

            Statist hell hole? LOL I haven’t been advocating government controls and regulations here.

          • PBV

            Not to put words in @wtfkenneth:disqus ‘s mouth, but I believe the argument is that the primary effect of short-term speculative trading is to take money from others without providing any form of product or service.

            If you’re playing against a fellow experienced trader, then it’s a mutually-agreed-upon game of poker. No harm, no foul, you both know what you’re doing and the “service” is the challenge of the game.

            If you’re playing against a naive person, then it’s an act of deliberately taking money from a child of sorts.

            In many speculative short-term markets what’s actually going on is the second thing. A lot of the money being “made” is really just being taken from inexperienced people. If we’re taking money from the naive without providing any service, isn’t that the equivalent of, say, defrauding the elderly?

          • That’s more or less the idea. As a principled libertarian, I support calling out such behavior, rather than attempting to prohibit it. You don’t have to violate the non-aggression principle to be a jerk.

          • Richard Wiig

            Your’e preaching altruism. Sacrifice for the sake of someone who might take a loss and feel it. Perhaps before you make another purchase of crypto you should find out who is on the other side of the deal to make sure that you’re not trading with someone who is taking a loss.

          • I am not preaching altruism. Perhaps you should look that up. This has nothing to do with giving to others without concern for yourself. It has to do with not being a dick.

          • Thank you PBV. I could not articulate this so well, but that is it — you nailed it.

          • Richard Wiig

            The trader doesn’t know who is on the other side of the trade. Naivety is risen above through experience, and losing is a part of gaining that experience. The seller could be selling for all kinds of reasons, as I said earlier. It could be to fund a heart operation, or go on a holiday, or because they’ve decided to put their money elsewhere where they think it might a better investment. But let’s assume a case of a naive seller. It isn’t the buyers fault that there’s a naive seller on the other end. The buyer cannot held responsible. It’s also unfair to say that the buyer should stop buying lest a naive seller takes a loss. Why should they do that? And it could even be that “whats the frequency Kenneth” buys from a naive seller who takes a loss. He is a long term holder, but that matters not when he buys. It could be that he bought from a naive seller who feels a loss. Ultimately the responsibility lies with the naive seller and no one else. A naive seller by default was also a naive buyer. A loss is not the end of the world. I myself have had losses. The most important thing is to have a positive outlook for the future and learn from your own experience. Shifting the blame to others a doesn’t empower anyone. It just drags things down.

          • PBV

            I do get what you’re saying, however this isn’t necessarily the case. Traders can play an important role in markets that actually add values for society. For example, in the commodities markets, speculators in futures are effectively offering a form of insurance to those who are creating commodities. A trader buying corn futures is speculating for personal gain, but is also helping the farmer.

            Similarly, by serving as counterparties even day traders are helping the system by providing liquidity and reducing friction.

          • I’m not against speculation, per se. I simply would like to shed light on what is often really going on, and try to persuade people to be introspective.

          • JJ Garcia

            Who could have foreseen a foreign government coming in and seizing funds and closing a legitimate exchange.

          • Allow me to rephrase. “Who could have foreseen problems in which my money disappears from an exchange?”

            Answer: Everyone who’s been watching what’s gone on previously. It’s nothing new.

        • Robert McAlery

          Don’t forget it’s the traders that create wealth for the “HODLers”. It’s hypocritical to pompously state that you “create wealth for a living” while accusing traders of not creating wealth, when it’s the traders that are creating value for your long term coin investments. Magic fairies don’t make the value of your investments increase.

          • No, it’s the new HODLers who do. There’s no hypocrisy there. You just want to feel good about making money off the misfortune of others. Don’t worry. I’m not a statist. I wouldn’t do anything to stop you. You have to live with yourself.

          • Robert McAlery

            You’re a pompous, self righteous fool. New HODLers set an initial price, but traders are required for a coins value to increase in long term. The simple fact is that without traders a coins value would never increase. If you buy crypto currencies as a long term investment and you make a profit then you are profiteering from the work done by traders. By your own logic you are making money from misfortune of others if sell your coins for a profit.

            So please give a reasoned argument, start thinking logically and stop the self righteous hypocrisy and talking nonsense.

  • JJ Garcia

    I too am not a criminal and I lost all of my crypto when the exchange was shutdown. Trading crypto was something I did everyday and it was the first thing I looked at in the morning. It was no small amount wither that I lost. I started with 7.75 BTC which I mined several years prior.

    • Well, depends how you look at it. If you lost what you put in (mining), then you lost the cost of electricity for however long years ago. From there it was pure profit. If you never thought to take some of that profit and put it in safe storage, then that is an oversight that you will have to accept. Consider the victims of Madoff. You have to move on.

  • Giuseppe

    I’m in the same situation.
    And i’m from Italy.

  • When my Government acts in this way, they are no better than the criminals they are targeting. What the FBI did only destroys the cooperation they have with law enforcement and intelligence agencies around the world. It is unfortunate we have to testify, but more upstanding members should speak out in their countries about this tyranny. Jamie and Mr. Kingston, thank you for detailing your experience. Mr. Kingston, on behalf of my Country, I am sorry you have been impacted by the obvious unrestrained actions of the FBI and those who commanded them to act in this way. This lesson will guide me and others in the future,

  • David Arulnathan

    Why not close down and freeze US banks accused of Money Laundering ??

    • JJ Garcia

      Hahaha I have been saying this since the closure.

  • reb0rn

    Almost there transfered 300K $ of litecoin on BTC-e just to covert to BTC and its gone 🙁
    What to tell you, to this date never sold any crypto to $ or fiat, never broken any law and I am not from USA 🙁

    • I am sorry for your loss. Remember that you have a future and you can/will earn much more than that over your lifetime. Try not to dwell on it. Like the victims of Madoff, you somehow just have to move on… I wish I could tell you how, but if I were in your shoes, I’d be rather depressed, never having seen such wealth myself.

  • chech0

    I hope the FBI refunds all users of their money, its not right when the cops steal money from everyone and label everyone as a criminal to justify the theft they commit, also I do not know how does the USA export their laws to Greece, does not have Greece any dignity whatsoever.? With the logic the FBI uses anyone can get arrested for breaking anyones laws anywhere in the planet, time someone Raids the FBI and arrests them on international terrorism charges and also for operating without a license outside their jurisdiction. This are the same clowns that told the people in the USA that Irak had weapons of mass destruction.
    What made BTC-E safer than other exchanges was the very high daily withdraw limits and fully automated no need to wait for an admin to approve the withdraw, unlike other exchanges where the withdraw is a bottleneck. KYC laws do not protect the customer I lost a lot of money with Robocoin and they failed to honor my requests to get my money back, and it was due to KYC that my money was stuck with Robocoin initially, they did not like my picture that was taken from my id.

    • How many injustices can you count in the world? This is just one of many and will be forgotten. Those who have lost money are unlikely to get it back, and if they do, it may be a long, long time, or less than had deposited. In a broader sense, the FBI is out there entrapping otherwise innocent citizens (apparently they are over-staffed or bored after they ramped up post-9/11). And those poor folks, and most of them are literally poor, go to prison.

      The US Government is interested in one thing: Ensuring it has control over all entry and exit points for all cryptocurrency. They want to be able to track any purchase, and they can. Eventually they’ll replace the USD with a cryptocurrency, you know… that is the eventual plan. It won’t be BTC or something community-backed, that would take a revolution, literally.. and people aren’t, for the most part, bad off enough to risk losing everything they have in a revolt, at least yet.

      Those are the cold, hard facts.

  • chech0

    I think with a good lawyer you could get your money back. It is not the first time the FBI steals users funds and apply USA law in other countries. This is a very good reason why p2p exchanges are needed. Well it is my distrust on this crooks and the gobernment fiat that got me on Bitcoin in the first place and I am happy to see Bitcoin going to the moon. You guys remember a payment procesor based in Costa Rica called Liberty Reserve, a few years back the same thing happened the FBI raided the payment processor similar to paypal and all the users money in all the acounts was stolen by the FBI.

  • James Brown

    and i thought my 500 ltc loss was something

  • He definitely has a right to his money, as much as each and everyone of us who also lost our hard earned money because of this stupid, selfish US Government!

    I WANT MY MONEY BACK MOTHER FUCKERS! !!

  • Jan Soukup

    Similar here, I ve started with ~$60k early 2016 (lost/margin called $35k the year before) and I have been buying since thru btc-e metatrader 4 on leverage.. 400s, 600s 700s… My opened positions are worth $1.6million at the last mt4 price. I wanted to hold it couple more years and it was much of my life savings. There simply was no other platform with mt4, pamm, cheap swap/margin, some of the best api. There were some bad rewiews, but for me it was always excellent. I have been puking all week. I ve seen russian sites suggesting there might be some political agenda involved as well.

    • This is the thing — a person who is barely scraping by may have lost $400 and that may cost them their rent payment that month. But you have already made over a million dollars. If you did not withdraw or hold some of that back (at least more than your original $60k) then that was foolish of you. However, fewer people will feel sorry for your ‘loss’ of your ‘found’ $1.54 million dollars than all the less wealthy people we will never hear about.

  • Are you freaken kidding me!?Total bs! Exchanges scare the shit out of me, not because I don’t trust them but because uncle Sam is a criminal!

  • Spirited Warrior

    Thank fuck for that! I saw Polinex’s inability to grant me enhanced verification after 2 months as a sign of an impending grab and run, so I started moving funds out of there slowly over a month. I was happy with BTC-e at the time but thought I’d play it safe and moved out $30k worth of ETH. Lucky lucky escape.

    • That is some good fortune!

  • Marko Markus

    i think this australian trader need demand in a internatioonal court…make everything for don’t loss your LEGAL Money… FBI is not a criminal organization, they need to respect the law also

    • But he sounds (according to him) wealthy and not so concerned about the loss. Unlike me, who would be contemplating suicide probably (never having that much money). I think he’ll just move on rather than spend a gazillion in legal fees and years of his life trying to get something back that he may never.

  • David

    We enter now the age of final violence. We are all in danger. Governments will forjudge you and others. Right and unjustness will not count anymore. The only thing that will count is the welfare of the politicians and theres related Gangsters. Being a president is understood as a privilege to exploit the population. Political office to serve the community? Muahahahh…!

  • Ochernitel

    Russian with you!!!

  • Obero Tek

    Mt. Gox was hacked by Hackers and BTC-e is hacked by FBI – is Government better than Criminals?

  • Alan Craig

    This action of the US is both illegal and immoral the US think they can do anything they wantThey are trying to extradite me to the US over an alleged stock exchange fraud of a 100 dollars that I deny vigourously but steal 3000 dollars of mine and thats ok

  • Talla Jerry Allbisnet

    I am a btc trader from cameroon in africa, having 6000$ inside btc-e before he shutdown by us who want to control the world.

  • Talla Jerry Allbisnet

    US government are they one creating tension in the world and multiplies terrorist by taking people money just like that. Imagine the anger of a bitcoin trader loosing 34 000USD

  • Talla Jerry Allbisnet

    THE US government better shutdown INTERNET in the all world,

    • You guys feel more powerful than you are. Trust me when I say the US government has more control than you could imagine and if they don’t want something to exist (I mean really don’t, not like it just being a pest like the darknet), it won’t. Simple as that. We almost have a police state. What you are now dealing with here is Civil Asset Forfeiture, a horror in the USA. You will probably have to PROVE the source of your income was legitimate in a court of law to get it back.

  • Terence

    I lost $100000+ on btc-e. In obviously gutted about this and the fact that I’m now out of of crypto game as such. I dodged a few bullets one being mt.gox.

    Should I have taken my money from btc-e before the takedown I would not have lost out so how on earth can it be right for me to lose my money now? Surely most of the people engaged in nefarious activities would have their funds out?

    • Here is the the thing — People don’t feel as sorry for a victim who loses a hundred thousand dollars than they do a guy who loses $400, as that may have been his rent check. If you had a hundred thousand dollars sitting in the exchange, then I assume you are still going to be OK, already have made a *HUGE* profit, and so it is hard to sympathize. That said, YES, you SHOULD get your money back, in an ideal world. And you MIGHT.

  • Alphi

    I have no sympathy for a guy who kept all his coins on BTC-E to avoid regulatory compliance and then got them confiscated by authorities. I agree this may have been a case of governmental overreach but having been in the game as long as he was he should have known that he was taking a huge risk leaving them there. There have been countless warnings not to leave large sums of coins on exchanges and yet people never seem to listen. Unless you are willing to invest in a very expensive lawyer and fight this one out in the courts for months if not years then consider it a lesson learnt and move on.

  • Itzik Ovadia

    I had 15,000$ in cash just before it was closed.
    Is it lost forever?

    • JJ Garcia

      I had 7.775 BTC…

    • If you are a US citizen, you need to appeal to the courts to recover your funds under the presumption of civil asset forfeiture. You must prove the funds originally came from a legitimate source, and then, after countless thousands in legal expenses and years, you may get your money back :o. It is a crime for those innocents, but OTOH, as stated above, it is also a bit of a lesson as to who to trust. I likened it to keeping your money in the same bank as drug cartels.

  • IVAN

    Don’t worry! Russian do not surrender! Sooner or later they will return all the money

  • Karol Olszewski

    you helped Russian criminals wash their money and NOW asking for a refund??? haha funny

    • There is some truth to this, and – in fact – it is the rationale the government used to seize the site and funds. A lot of the shady stuff going on with Bitcoin ended up here, all the ransomware attacks and such. So … it is like the worst place you could have been keeping any money. It is like storing your money in the same bank drug cartels use. Maybe the best bank in the world, but it sure is a risk.

  • I know what you mean about Poloniex. I have been trying for months to get to their $25,000 level. I’ve uploaded everything they’ve asked for 3 X and they always say they can’t read anything. Very frustrating, indeed.

  • Pablo

    You can see a similarweb analysis – less 5% btce is US users. I think 99% is legal traders, not crime, FBI talking bullshit without proof. Troolbox logs is proof? lol.

  • In the United States, we have Civil Asset Forfeiture. It is a terrible thing. The authorities can seize your cash or other assets (e.g. BTC) and then demand *you* prove it came from legitimate sources before you are able to access it again. This may take years and countless dollars in legal fees. However, I am more sympathetic to the poor who can’t fight back than the guy who made $2m with Bitcoin and lost $1m here.

  • Karol Olszewski

    Only criminals and people who have fishy online activities register at a website with no ID verification
    I registered at BTC-e once and as soon as I found out they are Russian I left their site
    YOU CAN’T TRUST RUSSIAN (I learned it in the HARD way)
    By the way, why some one uses a centralized exchange when you can use decentralized exchanges

    • Robert McAlery

      While trusting a Russian exchange is a bit naive, accusing all users of BTC-e of being money launderers is plainly stupid. Don’t blame innocent users for the criminal activities by the operators of the exchange.

      • Karol Olszewski

        Innocent users??? you should search for “what is money laundry 101”
        By registering at a website which doesn’t require id verification you helped money launderers believe it or not

        • Wacky Tobaccy

          Most exchanges don’t require id of any sort unless you’re going into fiat. I’m thinking your trading experience is rather slim.

  • M.R.Mohan Ratha

    people are used to give or park their funds with others.
    we will learn it the hard way. now that BTC is come in. we will get used to it.
    we are the bank.
    we are responsible

  • Ross

    DOJ is a bunch of criminals, they stole all our money for no reason, makes you wonder, why do they need more money, is the USD that broke

  • gettajob

    Two words: Civil forfeiture. Good luck.

  • Manuel Kerres (manuk0202)

    same goes for me i dont have much money in there but still why should the U.S. have the right to take my money??? i dont have anything to do with U.S and they only want to rule the WHOLE world -.-

    • If you are outside the US, you will definitely not get it back. I feel for you, as it is unjust. Those in the USA may get together and file a lawsuit, which *perhaps* could eventually, after many years, result in some recovery of funds, but that would be a long shot. In cases like this, you have to prove the money was legitimately earned in a court of law, which means spending thousands on lawyers and years of your life. The best advice is just to move on :o.

  • And here I thought my $1200usd scattered through various alt coins was a major loss. If i knew it was going to be stolen by the feds, I’d have rather spent it on lottery tickets.

    • If it makes you feel any better, I think most cryptocurrency users, at some point or another, have lost assets. Whether stolen, lost in some ‘bug’ of some wallet or light wallet, sent into the ether, or just accidentally deleted (I did that one once :o). This is the real ‘issue’ with cryptocurrencies, one has to be extremely careful, and most users just aren’t.

  • Itz Desire

    I pray he gets his money back

    • Well, like he said, he isn’t hurting for money, so it isn’t like he’ll be homeless.

  • That is an interesting proposition. However, it should be for a class-action lawsuit, not the help of a single (wealthy) investor who doesn’t seem that concerned about the loss. His quotes make it seem like he just dropped $100 accidentally. BUT if you could all come together, somehow… of course, the lawyers would just end up with most of the money, and you’d have no guarantee.

  • They couldn’t/wouldn’t hit Bitstamp, surely… or would they? I bet they are shoring up their financial compliance ASAP right now.

  • Enrique Hoyos

    Wondering how these fuckers will try to seize a decentralized exchange, when that happens.